Curse

Divineshadows · Aug 16, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Sig of Humility = useless rit

All you need is 1 skill to destroy the rit backline. With distortion you can easily reach him and survive.

You are being sarcastic, correct? Ritual lord has a 30 second recharge and instant activation. How is signet of humility going to help against that?

TheOneMephisto · Aug 16, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Why would a mature metagame be desired? Sure you knew what you were going to be playing against most of the time (except for the occassional spike or IWAY team) so you could easily metagame accordingly, but overall there was less variety than I see today.

Because it was fun as hell. I mean, pulling off a perfect gale lock just gave you a great feeling of satisfaction. OoB made monks stronger, but also with stronger offensive options it was fairly balanced there. It basically made monks learn to use skills like focus swapping and pre-protting more and better.

yesitsrob · Aug 16, 2006, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

You are being sarcastic, correct? Ritual lord has a 30 second recharge and instant activation. How is signet of humility going to help against that?

it wouldn't, to be hoenst.. sig humilty > rit lord. that's a load of crap. With 16 inspiration (althogh let's be more realistic and realise the absolute max would be 14 you'd run on a mesmer) you get 15 second shutdown on the elite (so you'd have to run inscriptions/signet mantra to completely lock it)... and rit lords duration is 30 seconds.. so technically the rit would just have to run even further back for a very short while to activate the rit lord, deeper than the mesmer could even begin to travel, and then return with a good 25 seconds left on his ritual lord. That's how it really is

If you think you can stop a ritualist with humility then i want to face the kind of rits twicky kid faces more often.

And yeah... ritualists... talk about an excuse to not ever have to bother learning the point of positioning... "this mesmers over extended" yeah, and he's probably going to get away with it

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 16, 2006, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I agree that Gale Wars and company rocked.

What I don't agree with is that every mature metagame ends up like that. Look at the end of the 1-month seasons for the GWFC. They almost all had one overpowering build that nobody was really able to counter. Months of FoC spike on imperial, SB/RI, or pre-nerf triple smite wouldn't be too good.

Greedy Gus · Aug 16, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

Why would a mature metagame be desired? Sure you knew what you were going to be playing against most of the time (except for the occassional spike or IWAY team) so you could easily metagame accordingly, but overall there was less variety than I see today.

I think you misunderstand the term. A matured metagame does not mean there is one build leaps and bounds above the rest. Just means that almost all avenues have been explored, and a number of builds have reached the 'peak' of their range. I see it connected with this sirlin article on local maxima:

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playin...laying-to-win/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirlin

I think of a game as a topological landscape with lots of hills and peaks that represent different tactics/strategies/characters. The higher the peak, the more effective that strategy is. Over time, players explore this landscape, discover more and more the hills and peaks, and climb to higher locations on the known hills and peaks. Players can’t really add height to these peaks; they are only exploring what’s there. The problem is, when you reach the base of a new peak (say, the rock ball trap peak), it can be very hard to know that the pinnacle isn’t very high. It might be really difficult to climb (lots of nuances to learn to do the trap), but in the end, the effectiveness of the tactic is low compared to the monstrous mountains that are out there. You have reached a local maximum, and would do better to exploring for new mountains.

In other words, playing to win involves exploring. It involves trying several different approaches in a game to see which you are best at, which other players are best at, and which you think will end up being the most effective in the end. When you are perfecting your rock ball trap (your best chance of winning at the time), you have to realize that "playing to win" might actually involve taking up a new character you know nothing about–a character that you will eventually play 10 times better than you could ever dream of playing Mega-man.

Given the same example of the prophecies metagame of gale wars etc., there were still plenty of teams who ran different builds to good success. EP's barrier spike, PrP's ranger spike, Xoo ladder's 4/4 split, Prav's rainbow spike, WM/ZPZG's crazy warrior builds, etc. etc. Just because the character selection was fairly similar, you still saw plenty of variety in builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

What I don't agree with is that every mature metagame ends up like that. Look at the end of the 1-month seasons for the GWFC. They almost all had one overpowering build that nobody was really able to counter. Months of FoC spike on imperial, SB/RI, or pre-nerf triple smite wouldn't be too good.

Are we playing the same game? I know everyone bitches on TGH and Guru about overpowered builds, but not everyone is playing them, the sky is not falling. I never saw FoC spike get any real play in a season (compared to tournament). SB/RI dominated the last week of a single season, and only saw limited play other than that. Same with triple smite. And this was generally with teams who had a real shot at the top 16.

Give me a break, no season was dominated with total wtfIMBA builds. The logic that if the seasons were longer than 1 month that we would have seen longer stretches of sb/ri, foc spike, triple smite, etc. is flawed too. Because if the season was longer, good teams wouldn't feel so stressed on time and could actually play the builds they enjoyed and preferred to get to their rightful elo value in time. And if an overpowering build did come out and see way too much play, then the devs would have more time to fix it without screwing up the playoffs. In a way, the short season is part of what does tie their hands to begin with.

Shortyafter · Aug 16, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

I agree that the gale war meta was extremely fun, just trying to show that not every overpowered FotM has to suck.

Thom · Aug 16, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

The gale warrior, domination mesmer, OoB monk metagame was fun, but so dominant that it switched focus almost entirely from builds to tactics. Some other mature metagame builds have been rather horrible to fight and play (most spikes are absolutely boring after a while).

Ladder resets are totally unnecessary even if you have multiple mini-seasons. After a season, the ladder is frozen and the tournement and rebalancing takes place. The ladder is than unfrozen with only slight adjustments at the top to reflect tournement wins/losses. Anet would have to have a handful of "scheduled matches" to keep the top of the ladder active, but I feel that this would be good for the game.

Bottom line is that you can keep some of the positives of the season format without while maintaining the integrity of the ladder.

Off Topic: I think a certain number of scheduled matches for top 16 teams would add to the flavor of the game. Perhaps small cash prizes would be in order. Scheduling would be done by ladder position not guild, but the exact time and teams would be set 48 hours prior to the game. The first place slot would have 12 scheduled games, 2nd would have 10, 3-4 would have 8 games each, 5-8 would have 6 each, and 9-16 would have 4 each. Format would be a a three game series and all games would count for ladder position. Being swept would mean three losses and a tumble down the ladder, while a split series wouldn't hurt either team. The idea would be to have a league setting among top teams and give the 1st and 2nd teams a real "pro" feeling to them. That is to say, potentially your number 1 team wouldn't have to play any random games if they could win all scheduled games. It would also make challenges for top spots more direct. I personally feel that a small prize should be paid for these games to offset the inconvience of scheduled play.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 16, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

The gale warrior, domination mesmer, OoB monk metagame was fun, but so dominant that it switched focus almost entirely from builds to tactics. Some other mature metagame builds have been rather horrible to fight and play (most spikes are absolutely boring after a while).

IMO switching focus from builds to tactics is awesome, makes for much more interesting games.

twicky_kid · Aug 16, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

You are being sarcastic, correct? Ritual lord has a 30 second recharge and instant activation. How is signet of humility going to help against that?

You have a stop watch during the match don't you? Use it. You can easily tell when the 30 seconds has past from its previous casting. Once you lock it out keep it locked.

While its shutdown you should be able to roll the other team in no time. Most teams build around that protection from rits.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 16, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

You have a stop watch during the match don't you? Use it. You can easily tell when the 30 seconds has past from its previous casting. Once you lock it out keep it locked.

While its shutdown you should be able to roll the other team in no time. Most teams build around that protection from rits.

As has been covered in this and other threads, keeping a mesmer in the enemy backline only works if you're against a bad team. Distortion eventually runs you out of energy.

Red Locust · Aug 17, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

What's really annoying me is that maps like Burning / Jade Isle make the thumpers/rits/insert gimmick, much more threatening than they should be. They're weaker than your average build in terms of tactical capability, but you can't use that against them if they pick an utterly retarded map that hardly allows for any breathing room.

I think a lot of the problem of rock-paper-scissors gvg would be solved if all gvg maps were more open to splits / maneuvers. There's HA for those that don't like that kind of stuff, tbh.

overclocked · Aug 17, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Give me a break, no season was dominated with total wtfIMBA builds.

season 1? EP bonder w/spike and 2 fragility mes, later just spike.

Lena A · Aug 17, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

As has been covered in this and other threads, keeping a mesmer in the enemy backline only works if you're against a bad team. Distortion eventually runs you out of energy.

Or make your monk come closer and die.

Or your signet of humility is interupt or you are snare and die or ... well it's just a suicide.

Burning Isle is ok for split since the map has been updated, the only f***ing unsplitable map is this stupid jade isle.

-bring back the gale-

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 17, 2006, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lena A

Burning Isle is ok for split since the map has been updated, the only f***ing unsplitable map is this stupid jade isle.

Disagreed. QQ gave us very serious trouble with their 2-assassin split when we were on the Jade isle. 6-2 and 5-3 splits actually have a lot of potential on the Jade Isle.

The thing is, when you come out of the coral you're at low health and easily spikeable, but that's only a risk if they have people waiting back at the base to deal with your split. If no one's waiting back you have plenty of time to heal, gank some NPCs, and escape back to the flagstand before the opposition gets into range.

Likewise, if they do have people waiting back you can just run back through the teleporters and crush them 8v6 at the flagstand.

Not all forms of splits will be effective on this isle, but it's by no means unsplittable. Teleports in particular are extremely powerful.

Burning, in the meantime, is still very difficult to split on for most teams.

Lena A · Aug 17, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

The main problem is that if you face a kind of VoD build with heavy defence which stays at the flagstand, you won't really be able to split.

The path for split is too close from the flagstand and so they can easily send people on the both way and just DP your split team.

2 charcaters with snare and heavy defence to avoid loosing in 8-8 can just block you.

A trapper is also a pain on this map.

If the build is design just a little bit for the map, then you can be sure to block the opposite team's split anytime they try to do it.

Patrograd · Aug 17, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

You have a stop watch during the match don't you? Use it. You can easily tell when the 30 seconds has past from its previous casting. Once you lock it out keep it locked.

While its shutdown you should be able to roll the other team in no time. Most teams build around that protection from rits.

IMO it is easier to interrupt the spirit(s) that are causing you most trouble, as a spirit which doesnt finish casting doesn't get the rit lord benefit from what I can see and has the full recharge. Correct me if I'm wrong though, as I'm not 100% sure this is the case

rii · Aug 17, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04

TBH, the most effective counter I've seen is stripping boon of creation. Of course, sticking a ranger on him is a very hard counter, but is a huge resource which might be better used elsewhere. With a 45s cooldown, it often only needs an occasional brief maraude from a distortion mesmer (assuming the Rt is *that* far back) to screw him over pretty bad.

Of course, you won't stop spirit output altogether, but mindless chaining becomes hard to maintain, and of course if the Rt relies on alt. e. management such as spirit siphon/essence strike (which is quite effective) you will have to revert to something like a ranger.

glenn_rolfe · Aug 18, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

TBH, the most effective counter I've seen is stripping boon of creation. Of course, sticking a ranger on him is a very hard counter, but is a huge resource which might be better used elsewhere. With a 45s cooldown, it often only needs an occasional brief maraude from a distortion mesmer (assuming the Rt is *that* far back) to screw him over pretty bad.

Of course, you won't stop spirit output altogether, but mindless chaining becomes hard to maintain, and of course if the Rt relies on alt. e. management such as spirit siphon/essence strike (which is quite effective) you will have to revert to something like a ranger.

pressure builds > rits

rits > spike builds

deadmonkey4u · Aug 22, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

If boon is their only e-management(iv seen this often) stripping it is the most effective answer. Or at least it worked really well for me

Ss Executioner · Aug 22, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Psychic Distraction = NO binding rituals are going to be pulled off, however a pdist is hard to manage. missing kinda sucks.